Unfinished Business Ep2: price changes, brand awareness and content that converts

Anaita

We are back for another red-hot episode of Unfinished Business, talking about the juicy stuff that really goes on behind the scenes of running a business. I'm Anaita Sarkar, founder of Hero Packaging and Staje, and author of Sell Anything Online. Today we have a superstar of the Australian business scene with us, someone who has built a household-name business and helped millions of Australians compare everything from credit cards to crypto along the way. He is the co-founder of the global comparison platform Finder, and now a growth advisor to start-ups and scale-ups. It is Jeremy Cabral. Welcome to the show. Thank you for being our special guest for the day.

Jeremy

Thank you for having me.

Anaita

I want everyone to get to know you a little bit better, so I thought we could do some quickfire questions with you. I'm going to start with this one: what does a typical day look like for you?

Jeremy

I start the day around 6am at the gym. Hopefully I don't wake my kids up on the way out of the house. This morning I did, and they weren't happy. But I do that, come home, hang with the kids, have an extra coffee, and then head into the city every day. For me, it's really about seeking an opportunity to learn and meet somebody new who's going to help me progress and be better.

It's very different to my days at Finder, where it was meetings back-to-back across all the functions, and really trying to drive the business forward across its strategic direction. Nowadays, it's more about how I can stay across this whole AI thing and teach as many businesses about it as well.

Anaita

And if you could describe your entire journey in one word, or the entrepreneurial journey, and yours in particular, what would that word be?

Jeremy

Speed.

Anaita

Oh, really?

Jeremy

Yeah. I think I've always over-indexed on being fast: first to a moment, first to launch something, first to capitalise on opportunities. For me, our culture at Finder was really defined as that. “Go live” is the culture Finder has around wanting to see something live. We don't want to talk about it. We iterate and build in public. So for us, I think speed has always been something that's really served us.

Anaita

I love that. And if I could also ask you this, because I am building a new business right now as well: what part of building a business still excites you to this day?

Jeremy

I think it's the fact that there are so many moving pieces right now. It's a lot to stay across as a founder. For me, I love learning. At the moment, I'm up late learning OpenCore and going nuts on that sort of thing. The opportunity to automate and really accelerate is exciting right now.

Anaita

Yeah, I feel you. I'm all into AI. I'm trying my absolute best to learn it as well. I want to know what the next chapter is for you, or what your unfinished business is.

Jeremy

I think I'm driven by my values. I love connection, growth and helping people. For me, I've obviously learnt a lot from bootstrapping Finder to over $100 million in revenue. There are things you can identify through pattern recognition, things that can help take away some pain from start-up founders or scale-ups looking to go to the next level.

So the unfinished business for me is really about sharing my playbooks, and also everything I've learnt in the last few months. I'm meeting some really cool companies and people that are doing things differently, and competing on a global stage as well. I'm very excited to be fortunate enough to give back right now.

Anaita

I love the throwaway comment of just bootstrapping a business to $100 million. That's my favourite part of what you just said.

Okay, so we have a segment called Reality Check. This is where small businesses call up and tell us something that hasn't gone quite to plan, maybe something they don't want to put on social media. I thought we could discuss it and maybe help solve their problems.

Jeremy

Love that. I'm keen to hear the stories.

Listener 1

I run a business with my husband and, somewhere between menopause, life, kids and the general chaos of running a business, I completely forgot to make a business overdraft payment. Not for a week, not for a month, but for three whole months.

I can't even remember why it wasn't taken out in a direct debit. But then we got a letter from the bank saying we had to pay the whole thing back in one month. That was a really awkward conversation with hubby.

Anaita

Yeah, we've all gone through this sort of stuff before. If you were advising her and her husband, what would you do in this situation?

Jeremy

First thing is you've got to meet with the bank and figure out who you need to speak to, and who their manager is. In my view, there are often situations like this that are largely automated. A bank is going to send out a notice, and on the other side of it, especially on the business banking side, there's generally a lot more wiggle room than on the consumer side.

So setting up a meeting, speaking to the bank manager and finding a solution — typically, there's something available. They want to work with you. They don't want to lose your business. There's probably a path forward here.

Anaita

I think so. And I think banks automatically think there are some dodgy people out there, so their processes are built for that dodgy style of business owner. But if you're going to have a difficult conversation with them and just be really transparent, I think that's the best thing you can do. Say, “I genuinely forgot. I am a good business owner. I'm a small business owner and I forgot to do it. Can I have an extension?”

Jeremy

Look, I was in the business of comparison for a very long time. I think having a parallel conversation with a competing bank to say, “Here's what just played out. I'm not really happy with how they handled the situation. Is there anything you can do to support me here?” And I'm sure they'll come at the situation trying to win your business. There's certainly a way forward.

Anaita

And the awkward conversation with her husband leads into this idea that having difficult conversations can lead to an easier life. I really believe that. The minute you find out, or the minute this stuff happens, it's so easy to panic and not tell anyone because you're embarrassed. But for me, every time I've said it out loud and been transparent about it, it's made it a lot easier because people can help you resolve it.

Jeremy

100%, yeah.

Anaita

Okay, so I know a lot of these things end up teaching you really valuable lessons in business. I've done so many things like this in the past, not just financially, but with anything, even with staff. I would love to know one surprising lesson you had at Finder.

Jeremy

A financial one was when we were growing internationally. I remember going to my New York office and seeing this stack of papers in the corner. We didn't have a local finance person, and one of the people who worked in editorial said, “Hey, there are all these letters addressed to you guys here in the corner.”

It was all the state governments saying, “This tax, that tax,” whatever. I was like, “So that's how it works over here.” I think you've got to get on the front foot. You've got to get a better understanding of how these governments work. The US is almost like each state is its own country. It's different, and it's complicated.

So in internationally expanding your business, get the right advice up front and make sure you can handle it. We were obviously all fine, but it was funny to see these papers piling up in the corner. It was like, “Oh, another one's arrived.”

Anaita

I think it's so funny now, but when you're doing it and you see all the bills, you're so triggered by it all.

Jeremy

Exactly.

Anaita

So sometimes these oversights end up teaching you valuable lessons. I'd love to know a valuable lesson you learnt at Finder.

Jeremy

Resource your strategy. Have the right people in place to bring it to life. There are some things you can take shortcuts on, and other things you don't want to take shortcuts on. From my perspective, set out the ambition, but progressively build correctly with the right capital behind it and the right people as well.

Anaita

Yes, processes and people. Got to get into it.

Okay, now we have our second Reality Check of the day. Let's have a listen.

Listener 2

I run a small cafe in a coastal part of Queensland. There's a regular who comes in all the time and complains loudly about the price of the coffee, the price of the sourdough, the price of everything. Yes, we had to raise prices because of high costs, but we're fair.

Last week, I got so fed up, I told him we were out of his favourite jam. Then I went out the back and ate the last serving for lunch. It was petty, but the most satisfying thing I've done all month. The customer isn't always right.

Anaita

Do you agree? Is the customer always right or not always right?

Jeremy

I think the customer's always right.

Anaita

Do you?

Jeremy

I do, yeah. I have a strong belief that you should look at that situation over a long arc and timeline. I know it's emotionally triggering for you in that moment, but it very rarely serves you to be petty and do something like that.

From my standpoint, I'm a believer that the customer's right, unless there are situations where they've been extremely rude or disrespectful. I think that's where you draw the line. Otherwise, finding a solution is typically possible, and it's always going to serve you.

Anaita

I'm looking at you with awe because I don't agree. I actually had to fire a couple of customers in the last couple of weeks. I was working and overheard my customer service girl saying, “You can't speak to me like this. I'm going to hang up the phone.” I said, “Hang up the phone.”

When she got off the phone, she had to go to the bathroom. She was crying for a little while and came back. When I asked her what happened, it was a customer who had ordered something and wanted it done faster, and had made her cry by yelling and swearing on the phone.

It's not cool. So immediately I wrote to the customer and actually had to say, “You're never allowed to shop with us again.” I blocked her on all these platforms. I really hold the belief that we do everything right. We're trying so hard as business owners to get this right. Of course, when we're wrong, we have to admit it. But sometimes the customer can be not very nice. What do we do in that situation?

Jeremy

I think it's about being assertive and definitely drawing a line. Clearly articulate to them what's going on and that it's best to take a pause and maybe speak about this later. As I said before, the moment someone's being rude or disrespectful, that's where it's pretty challenging and you've got to draw the line and not accept that.

I do think it's still important to resolve the issue and not walk away from it. But from my standpoint, in most scenarios, I think the customer is right. Sometimes the thing I really dislike is when a business owner complains about a customer. It's like, “Oh my gosh, you should be grateful that you have one.” The opposite problem is far worse.

So from my standpoint, the customer is right up until the point they're disrespectful or rude. That's where you've got to hold your own.

Anaita

Please don't check my last two Instagram posts. It's me complaining about the customer. But I think we were justified in that situation, and I would never do that to any customer who's just unhappy. It was the yelling, the swearing and the inappropriate behaviour.

Jeremy

Yeah, I think you did the right thing, for what it's worth.

Anaita

Thank you. Okay, how did you deal with that at Finder? Did you have any really uncomfortable situations with clients or customers? How did you deal with them? Were you the one in charge of talking to them? Did you just block them like I did? How did you handle that?

Jeremy

Honestly, one of the crazy things I decided to do in the early days was to have a phone number on the website. We'd get calls all day long. People would think we were the bank and sometimes get really upset with us, thinking we were whoever they wanted to speak to.

Often, we'd end up helping them out. We never really got paid for that, but we were effectively this customer service hotline for people comparing financial products.

I remember one specific scenario where somebody was calling me several times a week and was quite nervous around the situation they were in. I'd be on the phone for a couple of hours at a time. My face would be melting with the phone on the side of my head. I helped them through it, and they got through those scenarios.

For me, we became a really great referral point to financial services hotlines and call centres that can help people in challenging situations.

But yeah, it's difficult. That's the customer side. In terms of partners that list on Finder, we've had lots of situations over the years. I think being responsive, transparent and quick to act on a problem is the key. Mistakes happen. That's the reality.

Anaita 

And having a conversation with them actually solves a lot of things. I love that you put a phone number on there, even though it seems so silly. When we added a phone number to our website as well, we got calls about everything. It is the most unscalable thing, but it helps develop such a strong community for what you're building. I totally get that. But you do get the random phone calls that aren't so pleasant.

So this cafe owner was talking about how he's raised prices, and that's why the customer was unhappy. What is the right way to raise prices? Especially in this economy, costs are increasing, and as business owners, we really don't want to increase them. What do you recommend a business do?

Jeremy

I think giving sufficient notice that the price is increasing. If they're a regular, maybe put up a little notice saying, “From this date, prices are increasing to this amount.” I've seen some coffee shops, with coffee prices going through the roof in the last 12 months, change prices more than once in the space of a few months.

I think a company, especially a small business, needs to operate sustainably. Just be transparent and communicate that the situation is outside of your control. I think customers will understand. They're not the only people doing it. It's necessary to address your pricing to make sure your company operates in a sustainable way.

Anaita

I think there's also a way to do it publicly. I'm such a huge advocate of posting about it on social media as well, to say, “We apologise and we hate that we have to increase our prices, but we are going to do it on this date.” I think you can get a lot of community feedback, but also support.

So it's not just customer by customer as they come in. Posting about it and being open with everyone can actually gather more support than enemies.

Jeremy

Totally. And I think if you share some of the data behind it, like the price of a product or part of your production costs increasing by a certain percentage, that helps.

I remember following a handmade chocolate brand that was talking about cocoa prices. It was really cool seeing how transparently they were talking to their audience and saying, “Look, unfortunately we're increasing prices here.” They were educating people along the way about how volatile the whole thing is and how much they value the quality of the product they develop. They weren't willing to compromise and use lower-quality products, so the price was increasing. It was really great messaging.

Anaita

I love that. And it builds so much loyalty too.

Jeremy, now it is time for the Growth Hotline. This is where a business owner comes in and shares their challenges, and it's up to you and me to unpack them. Today we are joined by Lindsay Adam, founder of Winnie Parkes, Australian-owned natural rubber teethers.

A quick note before we begin: anything we share today is general advice only. Always speak with the right professionals when it comes to your specific business situation.

Lindsay, welcome to Unfinished Business.

Lindsay

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here with you both. Really nervous, but really excited to unpack some of the business issues I have at the moment as well.

Anaita

Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself — maybe your origin story and what you actually do?

Lindsay

Yeah, definitely. I'm a mum of three now, but the origin of Winnie Parkes started in those earlier days. We love a good story, so of course it started with a redundancy, some maternity leave and a lot of stress on my part.

I was working in a role I loved. I was made redundant while on maternity leave, and I ended up having to scramble to get back into the workforce. I took a five-day job, no flexibility, great money, but I was crying every single day. This was a national role for one of Australia's biggest brands. It was a dream role for anybody, but now that I was a mum, it was hitting differently. I couldn't do it. I was crying. I was away from the house from 6am till 7pm. I had a six-month-old baby at home.

A lot of it stemmed from that stress, that desire to do better, be better and be present for my family.

If we fast-forward a little bit, I was on my second lot of maternity leave with my son, Winston, and we were sitting on the floor. As we've all seen, teethers get cut open and there's mould on the inside. It really baffled me. I cut our very famous teether open, saw the mould on the inside and thought, “We need to do better. We need to be better. I want to be better as a mum, and I don't want these hidden nasties around my children.”

So I started looking for different brands online. I still wanted natural rubber. I love sustainability. I love naturality as a mum in my house, and making sure I'm exposing my children to the right things, not the wrong things. But I wasn't getting the neutral vibe I was looking for, and something with no hole.

As I sat there on the floor with my son, I started to draw up my first designs for Winnie Parkes. I love Australiana, so Banks the Koala was my very first design. It was really funny because my son was in the thick of teething, so I knew exactly what I wanted. It needed to be easy to hold. It needed some texture. It needed to be nice and squishy for jaw development.

I literally sat there on my living room floor, Wiggles blasting in the background to keep my son and daughter busy, writing lists of things I needed and wanted.

The drive from the redundancy made me think, “I want a better life, not only for me, but for other women in business as well.” I always talk about my business making a difference — not just for me, not just for the planet, not just for our little kids, but one day, I want to have a business that supports mums and women in business, and supports flexibility, so other mums never have to feel the way I felt when I was made redundant, went back to work full-time and missed my baby's childhood.

That's the grand scheme of where I want this brand to be and where I want it to go: to be a really good support network down the line.

At the moment, it's just me, so I don't quite have the ability to make an impact in other women's lives too much besides the people I bring on as brand reps. I've got my designers, I've got the people who make my boxes — they're all mums in business as well. That's the exciting part for me, that I'm making a small difference for them.

Anaita

It's so interesting that you say that because you make it sound so small, like it's just you and you're not actually making an impact right now. I think you're making a huge impact. You have no idea about the women around you, what you are doing, and even people who are also working in a nine-to-five who think, “I also want to do what she's doing.”

Even those mums who look at you — and you have no idea — are looking at you and thinking they could do that too. I think it's really amazing what you're doing. I would have loved to have that when my kids were little too.

So I was wondering if I could actually see your products, if you have them.

Lindsay

Of course. I brought them with me. I absolutely love them. I'll pass them around. We've got Banks the Koala first. This was my first design, and of course, with a little baby, you need something that's really easy to hold. We've got nice big chewy ears, lots of texture and a hard tail. Do you want to have a feel of that one as well?

Jeremy

Should I have a chew or a feel?

Lindsay

Look, if you feel like you need to chew it, we're not going to stop you.

Anaita

Yeah, you're right. It's actually great.

Lindsay

It's so funny when I do the expos. I have people saying, “I just thought that was something cute to sit on a shelf.” Then they touch it and they're like, “My goodness, it's flexible, it's chewy.”

Anaita

It's a stress reliever.

Lindsay

It is. Squishy, squishy.

Then we have Maeve the Mermaid. This one has lots of texture and easy hold points as well. That was my second design. Then we've got Diplo the Dino Dragon. These are part of my magical range, designed and helped by my children. Winston was three at the time, Parker would have been five, and we sat down and said, “What do we want? What are we into? What are kids loving? What's going to make them want to pick something up in their later years as well?”

For me, with sustainability, I don't just want it to be a teether. This is still going in the bath every single day with my children because there are no holes. It means they can really be played with for a long period of time. Once you're done with a teether, you're like, “What do I do with it?” We need to make sure it has a little bit of longevity too.

Anaita

You have mentioned quite a few unique selling propositions just now. You've actually said them without even knowing. What is the one thing that you market for? What is the unique selling proposition? You've got sustainability, you're helping mums, you're creating things that can go from baby to toddler to even beyond. What is the thing you like to market, or the thing that resonates most with your customers?

Lindsay

I say that you don't know what you don't know. As a new mum, or even a second- or third-time mum, you might not be aware of the dangers and the hidden mould and toxicity within your toys. The biggest thing for me is safety. I focus on product safety so you can enjoy your teething journey.

No one enjoys a teething journey, let's be honest about that. I'm just going through it with my youngest now. It's horrible. You're up all night. So you want quick, easy solutions — something your child is going to love.

For me, the biggest thing I talk to is how safe my products are. They are hole-free. They can go wherever your child goes because often, we're trying to put them in the bath and they're taking things with them.

Jeremy

Squishy, like a fluffy toy.

Lindsay

Something that shouldn't go in the bath always wants to go in the bath. For me, it's creating a friend and a product for them that can go anywhere they go. Safety and sustainability are really big things for me when it comes to my children.

Anaita

I actually want to get into the challenges. What is the biggest problem you're facing in your business right now?

Lindsay

I would definitely say brand awareness. I want to break it down a little bit because I have been in sales for 20 years. I am comfortable in sales. I have been a national account manager for one of the biggest brands in Australia. I actually have almost 100 small wholesale doors. I say small — these guys are amazing. They're all family-, mum-, parent- and baby-driven stores. So I do have 100 stores across Australia.

Before last year, I only had about 15. In the last 12 months, I've pushed myself into the wholesale direction because that's what I'm comfortable doing. I've done sales for a long time. It's an easy no-brainer for me. I can talk, I can make connections. It is about community as a parent.

But where I'm struggling is marketing and brand awareness. You put me on social media and I freeze. I absolutely freeze. I don't know what to do. I'm the worst millennial in the world. I get stuck. I don't know how to drive my business.

I would love to do paid ads. I've never done a paid ad. I've pressed boost on Instagram. I think all of us small businesses start there: “I'll just boost this post.” Then you get absolutely nowhere and freak out because you're spending your money. When you work for someone else, you're spending someone else's money. But when it's your business, I literally withdrew from my offset account to start this. It's my money.

My biggest hurdle right now is feeling safe to spend my money in marketing to get results and grow my business. Wholesale is great, but we know that when you can sell through your own channel, that's when you see more profit. I can really innovate a little bit more and make more products.

Anaita

I think that is so important for you. I love that you can get into wholesale. That's a skill not many people have, by the way, so that's actually awesome. Brand awareness is such a big one for all small businesses. Jeremy, what would you do?

Jeremy

I loved hearing your story, and looking at your website, I felt it's not really as highlighted or present there. For me, really elevating the story to be the thing people remember is key.

Off the back of that story, it's: what's the hook? What's the thing, in the three seconds you've got of someone's attention, that alerts them to the issue you're solving with your product? Through your content, having that story and the jarring thing of maybe cutting a competitor's product open and showing the grubby inside of it — and then saying, “We built a new thing that doesn't have holes,” or however you describe it.

I feel like the hook and one really viral, repetitive content piece could be enough to get the account cranking.

Anaita

He stole my idea, but actually that is so brilliant.

If you're sometimes not comfortable getting on camera, one thing you could do is not get on camera and just have your hands on camera. Cut up that old competitor one, open it up, show the mould, and that's always the hook. It starts with a different competitor every single time.

There is a TikTok account I think would be really good for you. There's a guy who basically opens up Hermès, Prada and Chanel bags, shows the workmanship, breaks down the cost and says, “This is actually not worth what you're paying for,” and so on. Turns out he has his own business making bags. By the time he started showcasing it, people trusted him implicitly because he'd shown the breakdown of all these other bags, and how he uses the leather, where he sources it from and how it's made.

That's exactly what I think you need to do. Going viral is not the goal of life, but it's a really good way to get started on the brand awareness journey.

Another thing I would do — and tell me if you disagree — is get other people and leverage their audiences. Creators, micro-creators, mums, very niche local experts, mums in Facebook groups who you can put paid spend behind. They may never have done that before, but people trust them. They're the local experts and the school mums everyone listens to. Using them to leverage their audiences is also a really good way to get brand awareness.

Have you ever used influencers for Finder?

Jeremy

Definitely. I've seen other brands do this as well. I think there are the big influencers everybody follows, and then there's a micro-influencer group that is happy to be gifted a product because they're on the path to wanting to be a bigger account. Leaning into that is less impactful on those initial posts, but doing it at scale is really effective.

Building on the idea we had around the mouldy photo or video that shows what's inside, you could even do a test of the bacteria and talk about how bad it is. I think there's real interest around how bad it is, and what the consequences are of having bacteria or mould exposure to your children. It would be cool to have something like that as a follow-up.

Lindsay

My brain's already ticking under a microscope.

Jeremy

Yeah, good one.

Anaita

Go down the scientific method. I think that's so cool — get a little piece of it, put it under the microscope and look at the germ growth.

The last thing I would say is you really do need to get started on paid ads. It is going to be the biggest driver of your business, not just for brand awareness, but also for making more sales. There is nothing that will beat it. Once you have a really good organic engine going, even a small amount per day, even starting at $15 a day, is a really good way to get in front of new audiences without having to physically create content because it's running for you behind the scenes.

I don't want you to do anything other than go to YouTube, find a really good video on how to set it all up and start small.

Lindsay

I can't even speak right now, I'm that excited. Dedicate some time — I think I definitely need to do that. Like I said, it's scary. It's your own money. You're jumping into something unknown. But thank goodness for YouTube, we can definitely jump on there. I know I'm reading a certain book that's very helpful at the moment as well. I'm excited to dive a little further into that.

Anaita

Awesome. So if we could summarise what she needs to do today, if there were three things — actually, there are four things. Jeremy was talking about the website and making sure your story is really on there because people are going to resonate with that, especially because you're targeting mums and they really want to know they can trust you.

I would say the disgusting videos on TikTok are really important as well, along with paid ads and influencers. It sounds like a lot to do, but start really small on each of those things, mainly the organic content, and figure out how you can keep that going all the time.

And my last point, the fifth point, which is a bonus point: stop boosting your posts on Instagram. Stop. It didn't work, and I was like, “Bye-bye money.”

Lindsay, thank you so much for coming on to Unfinished Business. It was so nice to unpack this challenge with you.

Lindsay

Thank you. It's been eye-opening for me today.

Anaita

And Jeremy, thank you. Your expertise is so amazing, and I'm so glad you could be with us today.

Jeremy

Thank you. It was great to be on the episode.

Anaita

Join us in our next episode for more Unfinished Business from Vodafone Business. In the meantime, if you enjoy this episode, give us five stars, share it with a friend or fellow business owner, and spread the lessons around. I'm Anaita Sarkar. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next time.